Our Friend The Vaccine?
I know this is a subject many feel passionate about on both sides. Strong advocates of childhood vaccines seem to think anyone choosing not to immunize his or her child is practically committing child abuse, while strong opponents of shots feel it is child abuse to subject a child to the risks that the immunizations may or may not create.
Personally, I seem to fall in the middle. While I see the benefits that vaccines have caused in the past, nearly eliminating some diseases, I see little reason to vaccinate a child growing up in an industrialised nation. Shots for chicken pox and hepatitis B seem ridiculous. I am not a big fan of western medicine, I believe it to be over-used on the border of abuse. At birth, we chose to decline both the vitamin K shot and the antibiotic eye drops. Both seemed unnecessary given the health of Moh and the fact she did not have, or ever have, gonorrhea. Why are they so routine?On the other hand, I don't feel that the paranoia that the opponents of vaccines are valid either. I have heard vaccines blamed for illnesses such as autism and asthma. I'm sorry, but it seems to me that that the parents making these claims are looking for an excuse to why his or her child has the illness.
So, as it stands now we are choosing to be vaccine free. However, if we decide to take an overseas trip when KIA is a bit older, we may choose, or forced, to get her vaccinated. I feel okay with our decision.
I know there are a lot of parents out there in bloggerland, if you choose to share I would be interested to hear your views on vaccines. Thank you.
posted by BurdockBoy @ 9:11 PM
27 comments
27 Comments:
We chose to receive the mumps measles hepatitis etc for the reason that they are dangerous and still do show up. Also we used to travel a bit and had fairly daily contact with immigrants from countries with these diseases still active in them. On the other hand we refused the chicken pox and allowed our children to acquire natural immunity. If they had made it to their late teens without chicken pox I would have then suggested the vaccine. Why? Because I know adults who have had chicken pox and it is long and dangerous for them--hospital stays etc etc. This new one for girls? I wouldn't have gotten it for mine if she were young---again waiting to see if I thought she needed it. Of course mine is older now so it's irrelevant :-)
In college you can sign the waiver saying it's against your religion to get them---I am sure if Kia ever goes to public school (never say never) you can sign them there too. Though I don't think they will offer it to you gladly.
monica
I am all for natural medicine, but if it comes to immunization of the little ones my kids have to go for it. I just feel it is safer to have them immunized. BTW my daugther had gotten the vaccines for chicken pox and she still had a break out of the desease. She was about 5yo back then. So there are no guarantees I guess.
I have mixed thoughts and emotions on this subject. We chose to vaccinate our son (18 mos) for hepatitis, diptheria, tetanus, etc. and opted for the thimerosal(a derivative of mercury)-free vaccines. My concerns with respect to vaccines lie in the following facts that 1) vaccines are a combination of preservatives (some include formaldehyde) and pieces of viruses, and we don't know how an individual will react to either, and 2) receiving a vaccine does not guarantee immunity - I received a rubella vaccine as a child and found out when I was pregnant that I was not rubella-immune. After I delivered, the hospital tried to force me to be re-immunized for rubella, but I refused - why would my body react differently to a subsequent vaccine of the same virus? Some people will just not develop an immunity to a disease regardless of whether they have the vaccine or not. My two cents...
We also chose to not vaccinate our kids. It was a difficult decision to make, but it's one that I feel strongly about.
I think some people assume that vaccines are an easy way to guarantee their child's safety, which they aren't. No vaccine is ever 100% effective (some are very ineffective), and I know a lot of kids who have gotten the very things they were vaccinated for (of course they always say it's a weaker case).
That being said, we may vaccinate for tetanus when and if we move somewhere more rural and have lots of animals.
I'm not afraid of vaccines, I think they definitely have their place, but I do think they have the potential to alter our immune systems, and not in a good way. A healthy lifestyle is far more important to fighting off disease, in my opinion.
I feel very strongly that we should vaccinate our children--not for themselves, but for other people. Imagine, if you will, that you allow your child to get the chickenpox. But of course, you don't know s/he has it until they have been contagious for a couple days. In your child's class, is another child who is immunicompromised. She contracts the pox from your child. Your child has no problems being sick for a week--other than being sick of course. But the other child falls seriously ill and ends up dying.
An extreme case, yes. But it happens. There are plenty of people who cannot for medical reasons recieve vaccines but they are the ones for whom catching the illness could be deadly. There are, of course, lesser cases as well--being very, very sick for a long time or giving the pox to an adult who isn't immune (it's much more horrid to get c'pox as an adult).
I just used the chicken pox as an example of course. The same is true of most other illness we can vaccinate against. Except with those, an outbreak of unvaccinated kids could be horrendous for the kids who get sick. The mumps, for instance, easily cause sterility in boys. Polio--surely we haven't forgetten what polio does to its victims? I have a cousin whose various disabilities are at least in part attributed to her birth mother's German measles. And so on.....
As someone who studies health and alternative medicine, I too have a few thoughts on vaccination. There are some that have been proven to be very effective such as tetanus. But others are not very effective at all and don't even guarantee a milder case of the disease. Much of how we react to disease depends on our own immune system and the responsibility we take for our own health. I had chickenpox as an adult and it was extremely mild, hardly any spots, no itching or other symptoms aside from one day of not feeling so hot. So there again, I don't think these diseases are even necessarily worse in adults, although I understand that adults often have worse cases. I do have major problems giving babies vaccinations as they don't have fully developed immune systems and are not necessarily able to handle being exposed to the foreign substances in vacinations. In fact, a number of years ago I read an article describing how for this very reason the medical system in Japan refuses to vaccinate any children under the age of two. They also had a marked decrease in the occurance of SIDS when this was implimented. Further to this argument is the fact that we now know that some vaccinations have been downright dangerous. Certain vaccinations given before certain years (probably my parents generation)have been linked to an increase in the occurence of lymphoma in later life. Interesting post and lots to think about.
MY children are up to date on vaccinations all that are required. I don't agree with the chicken pox vaccine but they got it because it was mandated. There is such a thing as being over vaccinated and this I believe is one of them. My children never recieved flu shots as they had had mercury in them. This is what many blame the Autism on as many of the childhood immunizations used to contain the heavy metal. I myself think Autism has an environmental cause but that is from an IAQ person. I also work in the public health field and realize that the goal is for the majority so if a few were to have bad reactions that is not the overall concern and the information would never surface due to the fear we have of people choosing not to vaccinate. Whenever I question something of this nature I look at research done in a country that has socialized medicine, they are less swayed by outside factors. Sorry bout the mouthful this is one issue that weighs heavily on my mind.
We began vaccinating, and our son received all his shots on time until he was four months old. It seemed to us that vaccines--though they do come with risks--were better than not vaccinating at all.
Since then, we took a step back and really looked into the issue, looked at the CDC stats and considered how the government as a history of changing the definition of diseases so that declines in diseases mirror introductions of vaccines. After that, we stopped vaccinating altogether.
Most of the illnesses that we vaccinate against are not particularly harmful when caught naturally, and vaccination doesn't always prevent disease anyway. I got mumps in highschool even though I was fully vaxed.
I'm still conflicted, but we can always resume vaccinations for our little guy at a later day, but we can't take away vaccinations he's already had.
My little guy has a mass of unknown origin on his leg, and his doctor believes it's a complication from his 4-month vaccination (the last one we had). Soon we'll find out if his suspicions are well-founded.
It's tough being a parent. (Whew ... that was a bit long-winded. Sorry.)
Thanks for all the input folks. I don't have a strong opinion on this matter, as I didn't give it a lot of though when my children young. Perhaps I should look into things in order to be a better informed grandfather. Thanks.
We don't vaccinate at all.
Monica:
Thanks for commenting. One shot I would never do is the chicken pox. Hepatitis seems only relevant to me if one is working with people that have Hep B. I even declined the shot when I did social work. A bit risky I guess. In Wisconsin we don't even have to use religion just philisophical. It's pretty easy. Idaho is the same way. Other states are a little more strict-similar to homebirthing.
Mone:
Thanks for stopping by. I have heard that the chicken pox shot is not a sure thing. I hadn't heard it directly though. I think I am certainly not doing that shot.
erin:
Hello. Thank you for leaving a response. It's almost like a survey in a way.
The contents of the vaccines are of great concern to me. We eat natural and whole foods so it just seems wierd to pump a bunch of foreign substances into our daughter.
Interesting example with the rubella. It almost seems as though it comes down to chance. I guess we're feeling pretty optimistic right now.
Cheryl:
I seem to be pretty much where you are at right now. If I feel like KIA would be at more of an at risk situation I may vaccinate. Like if we travel to more of a rural country-which we may. I also second the healthy lifestyle comment. Thanks.
annmarie:
Thank you for contributing.
I have heard people mention about protecting other children, but I always stated that if their child was immunized they shouldn't be concerned. I never considered a child that could not be compromised for medical reasons. That definitely brings up some new ethical concerns. Since so much comes down to chance, I guess I would just look at the odds.
We do plan on homeschooling or being part of a homeschool group. I could never see us using a public school. I have too many concerns.
Still, we have not totally decided on vaccinations. I will keep your comments in mind.
Carla:
I was surprised at how early they want to vaccinate. we have a friend with a newborn and they are traveling to Honduras so they had to get shots. At 2 months old the baby didn't seem to react to well to the shots. I hope her system will recover.
I was nott aware of the Japanese policy. I'll look into it. Thanks.
Maggie:
Greetings. Thanks for leaving a response. Don't worry about leaving a long response. I enjoy reading them.
Looking at countries with socialized medicines is a wonderful idea. Here in the States it seems as though so much research is guided by pharmacutical companies. I just don't trust 'em.
IAQ. Interesting. I have been working in the Envir. Health field and have been wanting to do a little more work with indoor air. Mold especially interests me.
Whoops KIA is crying. Gotta go.
Jenny:
Sorry to hear about your little guys complication. I have heard first hand of mild complications from vaccines. I guess right now we're feeling the risk isn't that great for what the vaccines are supposed to prevent, but I'm sure KIA would have at least a small adverse reaction to the shots.
It is tough being a parent. But it's worth it as well.
T. Fool:
Grandfather thoughts already in the mention?
I wish my father were around to see KIA. My family is very small.
Kim:
Given your short response I sense you are quite confident in your decision. Thanks for your imput.
I was one who did the vaccine thing. Not telling any one how to live their life but if you didn't post on vaccine you wouldn't want feed back.
I know people because of religious reason don't vaccine.
Don't matter how well we teach are children their going to develop their own personality and their things they'll do we as parents, won't approve of.
Majority of the time I've been happy with my boys decision they have made but they've been a few I wasn't thrilled about but I look at it as their choice.
Now on Hepatitis B shot. Some of us might say our children won't use street drugs or be sexual activity and we may not want them to. But they do have their own personality .
To Erin, Don't forget that some vacs. are grown on aborted fetal tissues that end up in your baby ....AND to Maggie, There is no such thing as " mandated" unless you live in West Virginia... the only state that does not have either religious, phil.,or medical exemption. We all have a right to say no. It may just take a bit of effort on your part. Kids are over-vaccinated and those who do not beleive this really need to be stronger advocates for their children. I am a Nurse Practitioner and I can tell you the harm I have seen from vac.gived so early and from over-vaccination. I have worked w/ many md's and other practitioners who feel the same. If you are sure you do want to vac. have your childs blood titers checked after two shots, bet you will find they are immune and do not need the other 3. When are people going to wakeup and see that their kids are being over-injected. One size fits all medicine is so wrong. Does anyone out there question why a 12 pound 2mos. old gets the same AMOUNT of DPT, Hep,MMR and others as a 60 pound 5 yr. old??? Food for thought... Everone consider yourselves lucky.... I could go on and on!!!!!
Touchy issue.
We vaccinate. I agree we do so because of what Annmarie said: we live in the world, so do the bugs, so do other kids AND people who could be immunocompromized OR are carriers.
I think it is a moral issue. Homeschool all you want, you STILL do need to go out into the world. And that's why we chose to give our kid a ton of shots that COULD have hurt her.
The alternative of doing nothing would hurt me more if our kid got sick.
Good discussion. I have to say we've not been much informed on this subject, just taking the recommended course of shots. I have a read a few articles here and there but never really felt compelled to take a side. (except of course by default in going with the flow.) This latest HPV vaccine has gotten my attention though. Plan to look at that one quite a bit more before going with the flow.
I agree that accepting all vaccinations offered isn't necessarily a good route. Each should be researched and a decision made that best suits the receiver of the vaccine.
However, I do think if the majority of people began refusing vaccines--and I think people are only able to make that choice today because others have been getting vaccinated for so many years--then we will be faced with the same problems we had before vaccines. If everyone wants their child to be the exception, no one will be vaccinated, and outbreaks will be very serious.
And the chance that the child will be near an immune compromised child or adult does exist and a chicken pox that can be a nuisance for a child can kill an adult and so on.
As for the autism issue, I've read several articles that discuss some sort of link so I was under the impression that this wasn't just parents making up the connection but actual scientific links between the two, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure I didn't pay very close attention to those articles at the time.
I don't have kids but we have on the advice of our vet not vaccinated our elderly dog the past few years because she said he is in too vulnerable a position to risk it. And I would do the same for a child in similar circumstance. The fact that the doctor made this recommendation kind of confirms for me that there are serious medical risks and that this issue shouldn't be taken lightly.
But as I said before, if everyone chose to not vaccinate, it would end up causing a problem it seems. Society might be able to handle this decision when it's a few individuals making it, but it will be a different issue if the majority began refusing vaccines.
(I don't know a ton about this subject so forgive my ignorance if my logic doesn't make sense.)
It is so important for this discussion to take place because parents and soon to be parents, in my opinion REALLY REALLY need to investigate before they vaccinate. Most all of the diseases we vaccinate against were ATLEAST a 40% decline naturally (from gradual exposure and natural immunity) BEFORE the specified vaccine was ever introduced. This is why when people accuse others of piggybacking herd immunity, I have to speak up and say if anything YOU are exposing MY children to MMR adn/or chicken pox when you get boosters and such....there is no compromise on my end in my opinion....I believe it is a sheep led concept-JUST DO WHAT THEY TELL YOU in MOST cases.I just dont see how after research you could decide to vaccinate, mercury, thirmosal, tin, even aluminum, monkey kidneys, aborted fetuses etc and people just say "ok".... The Polio vaccine is grown in the lining of MONKEY kidneys and intestines where in a significant section of our history, they were contaminated with SV-40 which is a bacteria now believed to be cancer causing....they are finding this bacteria in leukemia, brain cancer etc when studied. This means that your parents, grandparenst what have you were injected with such-You dont think that plays an AMAZING role in Americas cancer numbers now? Not even to mention in cases like this infants who were getting sick were getting sick because once a mother is immune to such she certainly cant pass on ANY of her PROTECTIVE antibodies to her child.
I certainly hope no one is taking the comment about death and chicken pox too seriously-Flu kills more children per year and in 2005 only 150 children died of the flu....I am not discounting those lives IN THE LEAST my point is it is VERY VERY rare and also no control group to say if it was the actual vaccine causing the illness. I am not nearly as worried about Chicken Pox, Measles, Mumps etc as I am many many auto-immune diseases...just like the well informed poster said its not "one size fits all medicine" here folks.....an hour old baby being injected with Hep B when FACTS are that most Hep B carriers are IV drug users or those infected by a partner and you as teh mother are tested during pregnancy...MERCK and all the manufacturers want your and your insurance companies dollars. Do you know the steps to recovery/remedy for both measles and mumps? Letting it play out with little to no complications....someone brought up boys becoming sterile from MUMPS? 20% of post pubescent males with mumps experience orchitis which is where the testes become inflamed and some medical doctors have led people to believe that you can become sterile. Orchitis affects ONE testicle and it is VERY rare to become sterile from such an ailment. Also, really how dare say someone is looking for a place to blame for their childs autism....there was a specfic study I BELIEVE to have been with the DTAP or maybe MMR vaccine where back in the 50's and 60's they really started to see a HUGE rise in this autism diagnosis and found that amazingly enough it was occuring in nearly like 90% of middle-upper class peoples children-would you like to consider why? Because POOR PEOPLE COULD NOT AFFORD TO VACCINATE. I just have a hard time dismissing facts here. We under no circumstance vaccinate nor would we ever...I hope that is slowly catching on and more people no matter what they choose can atleast begin to say they are "educated" in this, and I dont mean the CDC hand outs they give you at the Vax appt to say little Becky may get a fever or red and swollen at the injection site...I mean MEDICAL JOURNALISM. You may wish you could take back the years you let it go.
Peppylady:
I believe that we can only do our best of teaching our children. They will never make all of the decisions that we make, but much of what we teach will affect them. That is why I try to be as informed as possible. This posting was a great way to hear others beliefs and takes on the vaccine thing. I only want to do what we feel is right as parents.
Thanks for giving your two cents.
Anon:
Thanks for stopping by.
You make a wonderful comment regarding one size fits all medicine. This was one of the reasons we chose to homebirth as well. The doctors and nurses are so overwhelmed it is much easier to adopt a universal policy that of course doesn't work fo everyone. I guess we see it everywhere in our culture, even our schools. Thanks again.
el:
Thanks for commenting.
I am still an advocate of healthy lifestyles and will not keep KIA in a bubble. Our house i dusty from wood ash, we have dogs, and live in the woods. I believe that her building up a natural immunity to pollen and dust and dog dander is important. The same may go for some of the things vaccines are for.
Once again I feel that her catching one of the illnesses (except chicken pox) would be rare. I am willing to take the chance and I wouuldn't feel guilty if she did catch something.
Stephanie:
Hello. There really is a lot being kicked around here. I put the HPV up there with the Chcken Pox as totallly unneccessary.
M;
Thank you for commenting. Interesting event with your vet. I had never heard of that happening with an elder dog.
I am still not totally convinced that vaccines are responsible for eliminating many of the diseases they claim. Much has to do with nutrition and sanitation. I also wonder if our bodies would build up a natural immunity to many viruses as they are finding in Africa with Aids.
As for the autism, perhaps I was too cynical in my post, but I have read articles about autism and shots, but it just seemed like too many variabls. I had a friend with an autistic child who believed it was from the vaccines. Her second child she did not vaccinate, but he was also autistic. I agree with Maggie that it is environmental, bu it seems so hard to link. I guess I should do more research before voicing my opinion too much. Thanks.
Nicole:
Thank you for your wonderful contribution. Many Interesting comments to ponder.
I have heard theories of many people building up a natural immunity to the things we now vaccinate for, and it does make total sense. As I mentioned to M I believe in Africa there are people becoming tolerant to Aids.
I also don't take the chicken pox too seriously because I am old enough to remember everyone having it. Even when adults caught them it was rarely deadly.
I also apologize for blaming parents for blaming autism on vaccines, perhaps I was too harsh, but as I mentioned to M there just seems like so many variables to autism. It just seems so hard to pinpoint vaccines as the cause. I, like Maggie, believe it to be environmental. There are many new chemicals and more of common dangerous metals(ie mercury) in our water and environment. There are cases of autism all over the world with parent who immunize and those who don't. Also the reason there may appeare to be more cases in the 50's and 60's is because that was when they began to diagnose it. Before that people with autism symptoms were diagnosed with other psychological disorders-even schizophrenia.
Still, I am in no way denouncing that there are risks with vaccines. That is one reason why we are not vaccinating. It just seems to me that no one knows anthing for certain. It is all theories and science based on agends (both sides). I guess we're almost going on the instinc at this point.
Jesus I should have looked over my post for typos. My keyboard must be sticking.
I had all what was required? in 1968. I have a friend who is almost sterile because of her mom having injections about 1964. There's a class action going on in NY over it.
Quinn, no need to apologize on the autism thing, I am certain there were also misdiagnosis as well as results from vaccines. I can not also dismiss environmental contributors but I do believe that vaccinations are to blame for a TON of ailments today....way more so than smog, or any other "bug" living outside today....
I think my mom and I discussed it best the other day when I said to her that we as human beings are simply ARROGANT, and arrogant to think we have the ability to inject these monstrous ingredients in to our systems with no repercussions or ramifications. Nature would have taken care of the course of those diseases instead I believe by putting our own hands into it we made them MUCH more of a visible problem.
Lets talk about circumcision next ok? LOLOLOLOL :) PeAce and BLesSings!!
mandated if you want your children to attend preschool.
Another small note, when I noted environmental factors I did not mean just smog or pollen. I think pesticides especially persistant, chemicals, plasticizers, biocides, ozone..........the list goes on and on especially inside the home. I know this is not the topic on hand I just thought I needed to clarify that too. What an emotional discussion you have started, kudos.
KUDOS indeed! I love it!
Toby:
I have also heard of sterilization occuring occasionally. I wonder what will become of the case.
Nicole:
We humans are indeed an arrogant bunch. We put way too much confidence and hope in science and technology. I believe that we have benefited from them, but to think science and tech. are the "cure all" is incredibly naive.
Maggie:
I knew this was a pretty controversial issue, but I had no idea of what kind of reactions and talking points to expect.....
maggie... do some more homework on the "mandated" topic. I do not know what state you live in, But all but one has exemptions. That includes pre-school. Does not matter what the school tells you. Know the law!!
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